Welcome to the recovery. com podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Mala. And today I'm joined by fellow host, Cliff McDonald. Hi, Cliff. 

Hi, Dr. Mala. Thanks so much for having me here.

Of course, always. I'm so excited to welcome today. Casey Gooding, chief marketing officer at Jay Walker Lodge in Carbondale, Colorado.  nearly a decade of experience in behavioral healthcare, Casey oversees strategic partnerships, marketing, admissions, alumni relations, and so much more. He's a passionate advocate, led national and state level advocacy efforts, and created impactful events like Recovery Open and serves on influential committees like NADAC and NATAP.  Casey's dedication to recovery and the recovery field, as well as his advocacy, is inspiring and I'm so excited to welcome you here today, Casey. 

Thank you so much, Dr. Mala. And good to see you, my friend Cliff.

Yeah,

Excited to be here.

wonderful.  can dive right in. And the first question that I always like to start us off with is What's been your personal journey? What inspired you to dedicate your career to this field and to behavioral health care? 

 Yeah, absolutely. I think that kind of starts with my personal experience.  I'm originally from East Lansing, Michigan, and was born and raised there for the first 34 years of my life. And,  I had been an individual who struggled quite often. I spent my 18th birthday in a,  adolescent treatment program  and I wasn't,  until I was 35 until I was able to find lasting,  sobriety and recovery.

So if you're paying attention, that means that I struggled with a disease of addiction and alcoholism,  for a long time. 17 years. It took me 17 years to get one year of recovery. And, um, as anybody,  that suffers from that, you know, I had a family who was supportive of me and, you know, the closer you get to the addict, oftentimes the more painful that can be.

And so there were a lot of struggles that me and my family and people that were close to me experienced throughout those, you know, you know, years that I was having challenges. And,  in 2012, my family, , had noticed that my life was not improving. In fact, it was declining in a pretty significant way.

And they offered me an opportunity to change my life. And really simply, they stated, Casey, we love you enough to tell you that  we're committed to helping in any capacity we can to your recovery.  And we can no longer harm you by not supporting anything that's relative to your recovery.  And for me, that meant that, you know, I wasn't going to be able to, , gain their financial support.

I wasn't going to be able to get a little rent money when I needed it. I probably wasn't going on family vacation. They weren't going to pay my car note, but if I wanted their help with recovery, Then they would go all the way in for me. And, you know, at that point in my life,  I kind of had to make a decision.

Um, the decision, , took me a little while to make. It wasn't something that I rushed into and, uh, decided right away. , I decided that, , I would get back with them, which I did. And,  the truth of it was, is that my life was not going to get better unless I made some significant changes and, and internally, I knew that.

, and so I accepted their gift and entered the treatment center on 11 28 of 2012,  for the last time,  and I had many treatments in between,  those years. And the thing that was different this time was, was that I had enough experience to know that I absolutely suffer from this disease.

And I'd seen other people that would recover from it, and I knew that I needed a treatment episode to give me the time and space that I could work on myself long enough that I could be successful in a 12 step program. And most importantly,  My family made a commitment that this was something that we were going to do together that this was not something that the burden of this change was not entirely on me, but we would be supportive of one another throughout that process, which means I had my responsibility to accept the care and they had their responsibility to engage in family program and these sorts of things.

And, you know, as it turns out, ,  it worked. That's why we're here today. And as a result of the. Unconditional love and continued commitment of my family.  I stand here with you guys today in a position where I can utilize my experience to benefit other people and families on the journey to recovery. 

 That, that is so powerful and moving and thank you for sharing that. I'm sure we'll get into some additional nuances as well. I guess the next question for me is what was the turning point for you? What was that moment? And what did it, you know, sound like, feel like? What was the narrative in your mind for that moment? What

 , I still recall this very specifically. You know, I had been separated from my family for a little bit of time.  For the most part, I could keep a roof over my head. I could pay some of the bills that I had these sorts of things, but I hadn't seen them. In quite some time. And it was quite intentional in fact,  because the disease of addiction is very isolating.

So if I can keep my family members and those that are closest to me, farther away from me, then I have a higher likelihood of continuing to drink and use the way that I want to.  So when I met my family in Southern California and they took me that rehab, , I recall my dad, , telling me that he just wanted me to have a life that was worth living and he was crying. 

And the lie that I had always told myself  was that this addiction hurts me, but it doesn't hurt other people.  And right there in that moment when I was entering that treatment program,  I could no longer. Tell myself the lie, because it was extremely evident to me that my action, my behavior, my addiction had not just hurt my family, but absolutely crushed them, right?

And so,  as I entered that treatment program, knowing that I had the support of my family and that I had a responsibility to myself to make the most of that opportunity,  I also recognize that I had a responsibility to the people around me to make the most of it.  And so, uh, my intention going into the treatment program was to gather every little bit that I could so that I could make this a successful treatment. 

 Hey, Casey.   This is great. What a great start here. Appreciate your, uh, rigorous honesty and vulnerability. , I know a little bit of your story, but I'm learning more about it here. Obviously, a recovered alcoholic here myself.  It sounds like your family  showed unconditional love and support and they hung in there. Was there family history? Have they seen this before? And also, did you start real young? You said 18. Like were you, were you off to the races really early? Did you run with the wrong crowd? Would love to go into both family history in your early years 

 So in regards to the family history, I'd say, you know, our families probably like a lot of families in America today. There's always riddled with some addiction at some level.  My grandmother on my dad's side was absolutely an alcoholic. , everything in her life would lead you to believe, uh, that from, his upbringing and other things.

, my uncle on, , my dad's side, also a drug addict, crack cocaine addict had a lot of challenges in his life. I have many other cousins that suffer from the disease. So my family was no stranger to seeing how addiction affects a family system. What they didn't have experience in, you know, is how it affects their system.

, my parents were experts at parenting Casey up and down through all of his challenges. What they weren't experts in is family system dynamics. They weren't, , they weren't addiction, , therapists. They weren't LCSWs. They did not attain the level. , of, , education that they required as parents supporting someone with a disease like mine.

And so they opted into a lot of options to the best that they could. And yes, it started very, very young for me, probably at the ages of 14, 15. You know, using marijuana, alcohol, these sorts of things.  , by the time I was 17 and in my senior year of high school, ,  I was basically failing out and, , I did enter an adolescent program at that time. 

You know, there will be many more challenges that would, , continue to develop over the period of time. There were times of joy. There were times of, , real challenges and heartaches. Um, , addiction would. , progressively get worse over a period of time to the point where, , I was in and out of treatment programs and detoxes prior to, , the incredible opportunity that my family had provided me in 2012.

So long history of those types of things and my family seeing that. However, just seeing that doesn't really give a family the experience or the support resources that they need to parent their children that are suffering in this way. 

 and Casey.  We'll get to your, , amazing transformation, , later.  I know you as.  leader, someone who's very intelligent, and also I've seen you on the golf course. You're a pretty good athlete. Have you shown those things as an adolescent athletic ability, intellectual ability, leadership? Had people seen that in you? 

 Yeah, I think so.  You know, we often talk about, , potential and,   Alcoholics and addicts, right? And I was always a person who had a lot of potential. I played a lot of sports when I was young. I was on the golf team in high school. We won a state title.  I was always surrounded by people in sports.

I was liked. I was popular.  There were a lot of things that were extremely admirable qualities about me as a young man in adolescence. , somehow, some way. , things went wayward for me, , in the aspect of,  , men and women drink essentially because they like the effect that's produced by alcohol.

You know, I like the effect produced by alcohol, marijuana, and many, many other substances. And that started taking a more exhilarating role in my life. And so what ended up happening was, , I was a person of great intention. I could tell you, , Exactly. All the things that I was going to do and accomplish in the world and the great person that I was going to be in my family, for the most part, believed in me.

They supported me. They wanted those things for me. They gave me ample opportunities to do those things.  But in the end, I had a significant challenge in meeting my intentions with my actions. My actions did not demonstrate that I was capable of living up to the potential. That I have in my life, certainly until I was able to find lasting recovery. 

  The stories are all the same and they're all different, right? And, ,  let's pivot to November 28, 2012.  ,  Was the recovery program like that,  helped you get started in your life and recovery?

 Yeah,  so the recovery program that I went to, , to me had a lot of all the really good components that equate to having a good program that can create success for individuals, right? So when I talk about that, it was a safe and comfortable environment, , where I could go and feel safe.   There were a lot of qualified therapists and psychiatrists and psychologists and clinical professionals that could help me psychiatrically and therapeutically in that process. 

There was a relative peer community that was involved in the treatment program. Other people that were already there and would come after I had been there that shared a lot of the same experiences that I had.  in my addiction.  ,   probably the most important thing about that was they made a commitment to the family system dynamics and they brought my family along , for the journey.

, in the story that I'm telling you right now, you will see and understand that my family made changes long before I was ready to make changes.  It was only as a result of the changes they made that promoted me into accepting the gift that they provided  and then entering this safe environment with like minded people with quality professionals that could support me over a period of time that would get to a successful result. 

And so when I think of what equates to quality treatment, you know, and I've worked in the field now for over a decade, the first thing , is it a supportive environment? Second, do they have qualified? people that are supporting the individuals there? Is there a relative peer community that's there, whether it's women, men, co ed, whatever it could be? 

How long is the intended treatment? Because typically the longer it is, the higher success rate we have.  And then last and most importantly, , what is, what does the , treatment provider do to support the family in continuing to make changes? Because.  The initial changes that my family made would not have been significant enough to keep me engaged in recovery. 

They had to continue to change as I was changing throughout the treatment process, which led us to a result of success. Yeah.

 And we'll, we'll, we'll definitely talk about the amazing work Jay Walker Lodge is doing in Casey when I visited there this summer, late this summer for the wonderful events that you guys put on, , and you gave that tour and we talked about the family work that Jay Walker Lodge is doing. We'll come back to that.  with the chronology. So, , November of 2012, you go,  to inpatient, I'm guessing. And then what happens then? Do you go sober living, step down? And, and is that the start of your career in behavioral health? Walk us through  of how that went, the continuum of care, so to speak, and your involvement with behavioral health care.

 So  I think, you know, we'll piece this up a little bit because, , we've talked about the journey of getting to treatment, in 2012 and, , the story of what happens in treatment is very important to the overall success that we see in our lives post treatment. And so, you know, You know, the treatment program I went to, they started taking us to AA meetings.

And I was no stranger to AA. I went to my first AA meeting when I was the age of 16, 17.  I had been unwilling to do the work in AA, therefore I was not successful in the program. However,  , they took us to each of these different kinds of meetings on a nightly basis after the clinical programming had concluded.

And I remember going to, a meeting and it was a men's meeting in South Orange County, California. That's where I got sober at. And, , I said, if I'm going to get a sponsor, it's got to be one of these guys. They, you know, they drive nice cars. They talk about their lives, their families.  I don't think that these people are lying to me.

They didn't all just arrive here to convince me to join them, right? These people are authentic and I can feel it because when I came in last week, A guy named Jim asked me what my name was,  and I told him what my name is, and I told him a little bit about my story, and he said, sit down, have a cup of coffee.

You're welcome here. And when I showed up the next week, Jim said, Hey, Casey, it's really nice to see you.  And that hadn't happened in my life before.  Right? So I knew there was authenticity here. So I sat in the meeting. And I mustered up enough courage and, you know, my face was red and my palms were sweaty and I raised my hand like this.

And I said, my name's Casey. I'm an alcoholic and I have absolutely no clue how to stay sober.  If I did know how to stay sober, I wouldn't be here with you.  I would have done it on my own.  It would have been the first rehab. I would have Done my 30 days and went on about my merry life. I could have went to church on Sundays and I would just do that and live a prosperous life.

I would just see a therapist once a week. This, the first wife out of the two that I have would have saved me. , I've tried every single thing I could try to beat this thing and, and here I am in treatment again and I'm willing to listen. , in a surfer dude in the back of the room that was wearing a flat bill cap and Dickies and rainbow sandals, raise his hand after me.

And he says, my name's Christian. I'm an alcoholic. I need sponses. Like, I need water. Why don't you come talk to me after the meeting? And there began a sponsor and sponsor relationship and sponsee relationship  that would walk me through the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous throughout that treatment in cohesion with that treatment process and allow me an opportunity to actually experience freedom from active addiction. 

Right. And  when I look back at the treatment episode, I think, well, what were the components that created success? And the best thing I can tell you is they put me into touch with Alcoholics Anonymous, that put me in touch with a surfer named Christian S, who put me in touch with a power greater than myself.

They gave me purpose in my life.   

a poignant  telling. And, , I think my question is, as you said what you said, and you allowed the words to come from here to here and from here,  what did you feel? Was it fear?  What were the feelings?  That you were experiencing in that moment. 

When I raised my hand in the meeting, yeah, yeah.   Well, I think the feelings that I had experienced was really kind of, um, surrender  when I think of it, , I was fully surrendered to the fact that my way of doing things was not working for me.  And it challenged me  going back to that moment where I sat and saw my dad crying, whereas am I going to put everything into this because my life is on the line. 

You know, a lot of people go to treatment and, , they don't think that their life is on the line and we try and.  isolate ourselves from our peers, we're different from them, these types of things. By the time I went to treatment this time, I wondered if I'd ever be able to get sober like I saw other people being sober. 

I started in that treatment when I was 17, looking around the room saying that I'm not like these people.  And by the time I came back,  I looked around the room and said, I don't know if I can do what these people do.  . And so there was a lot of frustration. There was fear, a lot of anxiety,  but I was forced to make a decision, , that was a life changing and life saving decision that I made, , in that time, I had known that people , were successful in the program that did the program. 

I knew that I was not doing the program, therefore I couldn't find success, but I believed in the product in the process  of the program, because I saw people that were successful.

 Right. . What else was it, as you continued on this journey, that reinforced that for you? 

 Yeah. , I think that, , this value proposition that we talk about in here throughout that process takes some time sometimes,  , , for me, it had to be more than just not experiencing the consequences of living daily life and addiction.  There had to be a promise of what the future could look like in recovery.

And throughout the process of treatment,  I was starting to engage in relationships and friendships. I was starting to experience joy in life. I was starting to learn more about myself and what had kept me sick. I was doing the steps and accomplishing goals in the 12 step program and in treatment. So I was building self esteem.

I was displaying a level of humility that I had never attained before. And before you know it throughout that process, I kind of looked around and said, well, life, maybe not as bad as, as what I thought it was right. And I have a pretty incredible opportunity to make the most of something. And I think I'll keep going.

Because day by day, hour by hour, my life started to improve in a pretty rapid pace, and I could see that.  And the other thing about going through that experience with either people in treatment or in the 12 step program,  seeing them on a daily or weekly basis, you get to see other people's lives improve dramatically right before your eyes.

So I might have been the last person to know how  significantly I was changing through that process, right? So it's, it's impactful. 

 Yeah,  , it  with me. You know, , you have these turning points, , whatever you want to call it, these,  sudden and spectacular transformations, spiritual experiences.  , a psychic change, right? And your dad crying. What I heard there was you witnessed vulnerability. And Jaywalker Live, you guys specialize in young men. We are so bad at that. And , so many of us never had space for vulnerability. And to say, I'm struggling, I'm scared. Maybe seeing your own father shed a tear. Your father must be a wonderful guy. I bet he was very successful, right? And seeing like, oh my goodness, look at what I've done to this guy.

Right. And then in the rooms, you say surrender, right? , and the relief that comes with that, right? I know for me, I'm a 12 step guy too. When I did a real step three, man, I was like, I felt this tremendous weight off my shoulder that I didn't even know was there. You know what I mean? Surrender  relief.  And now Casey, you  and Jay Walker Lodge, you get to witness, I agree, man, there's nothing more powerful. There's no better juice than seeing the lights come on with another human being.  Step 12, whatever you want to call it and doing that work. Now you get to do that all the time at one of the best places in the world, specializing  young men. I want to make sure we talk a lot about Jay Walker because everyone knows you guys are special. Your outcomes are special.  alumni program is special. The way you do families is special and you specialize in a chronic relapse or someone who hasn't been able to get it. But before we do that, take us from,  to Jay Walker.

How do you get involved in the space? Do you start at the lowest level? Does someone give you an opportunity? Walk us through that professional development, please.

Yeah.   So, uh, one of the,  , men that was at part of my home group that I got sober with that went to the same treatment program that I went to, , started working in the field and he went and got his credentials to be a counselor. He started working at a small outpatient program and out Orange County, and they thought he would be much better at business development than , being a clinician and they were right.

, so, , he was part of my home group and he was going to experience life in these ways and he was going to conferences and he was meeting a lot of friends and he was collaborating and networking and doing marketing for a treatment program. And, , I didn't have,  or know that that was part of this work.

You know, I didn't know anything about it. I saw people that worked in treatment. You were either a tech or a clinician. And I also, , I also got sober in a very saturated area. And so there were a lot of people in AA that worked, , in the treatment space. And a lot of those people didn't stay sober very long.

And so I kind of had my guard up regarding working in treatment. It wasn't something necessarily that I wanted. Okay.  But I did have a conversation with Andrew, my friend,  and he.  told me what he does and, , stated that, you know, he thought I'd be pretty good at this. And so he says, , you love AA, you sponsor a lot of guys, , you went through treatment, you have that experience of going through treatment, your family, what they experienced, , you're a very impressionable person, you're social, you've got these types of skills.

I think you'd be great at this. Why don't you come talk to my boss?  So I went in and had lunch with him and his boss and his boss, Vito was telling me exactly what I was going to be doing for the organization, all these things. There wasn't much of a resume. It was, it was pretty casual. And next thing you know, I'm working at a place called 449 recovery, where I worked for my first two years , and I enjoyed my experience and really wonderful people there.

And we were an outpatient aftercare program. So that was, that was great. Really awesome. Because at that level of care, you could see these successful outcomes that we talk about. And, you know, people launching more into a self sufficient life and recovery. And that was great. And I worked there for two years.

And then, , I transitioned into a position as national director of business development at New Method Wellness, which is in South Orange County. And we were in all levels of care program. And I worked there There for about five years, , prior to transitioning to burning tree ranch, where I worked for about a year prior to coming here to Jay Walker  and each program that I worked at, , I had these heroes, uh, that were in the field, guys like Gary Fisher and guys like Bobby Ferguson. 

These were the kinds of people. That I aspired to be like, every time I would engage with them, they were those authentic individuals that I found initially in the 12 steps rooms. And these guys are big 12 step AA guys.  And, , they had been successful in their careers in our field for decades. And so any moments that I could spend with them, whether it was a golf trip or hanging at a conference, I was glued to them.

I was listening. I was, , learning as much as I could. And so when the opportunity came for me to come here to work at Jay Walker, where I could work for somebody that I would consider a mentor and a leader in our field,  , it was a really easy decision for me. , I packed up my life in Southern California that I'd built there over 10 years.

We grabbed our little doggie and a U Haul and we headed for Aspen.  And, , that's not a decision that I regret in any way. It's been a really wonderful experience and it looks like I'll be telling y'all about that next, so. 

 Yeah, absolutely. I definitely want to hear about that more. And, um,  we'll get to this, I'm sure, how that ties into the advocacy, because it, you know, I think if we're in this field,  always think,  we're advocating just by sharing our story. So, , obviously you've done that and then some.

So fill us in, tell us more. 

 Yeah, advocacy became important to me a few years back. I had another mentor by the name of Sherry Layton. She works for. La Hacienda Treatment Center in Hunt, Texas. And she has been a huge advocate for our space and,  our field for quite some time. And, , I've been on the membership committee for the National Association of Addiction Treatment Providers over the last five years.

And we've had conferences in Washington, D. C. a few of those years. Where Sherry asked me to lead, , the state affiliates from the state of California when I was living there to make appointments with  our senators and our house of representatives. So we could talk with our legislators about the importance of providing services to meet the needs of our communities, right?

And one of the things that was.  , very eye opening to me was  the amount of individuals that work in our space that have no clue. The importance of these advocacy efforts.  We kind of take for granted that insurance is going to pay for bills for people to come to treatment. We take for granted that local ordinances are accepting of treatment programs, no matter what our ethical guidelines are.

We take for granted a lot of things and the way that I was seeing things unfold in my area in my community is we should not take those things for granted. We should actively participate in advocacy so that we can create  opportunities to support more people that are suffering that could benefit from our programs, whether it's a Medicaid program or an expensive cash pay program.

. What is good for the community is good for all. And so I was asked to join the NAIDAC, N A A D A C, um, National Public Policy Committee, and I've served on that organization for about three years.  And I've created advocacy campaigns in the state of California called CASA, California Alliance for State Advocacy.

And we've had active participation in certain bills that have passed that have benefited behavioral health care providers in space.  And so for me, I'm always more than willing to participate and learn more about that and encourage other people that are in our space to pay attention. And thank you. , actively, , advocate for the individuals and families that they serve.

And it's been a really gratifying part of my career that I've really enjoyed a lot. 

Yeah,  that's absolutely amazing. , I think just for our audience too,  how do you suggest people get involved and get into this realm of advocacy?  No,

step is you got to find out what's out there and, for people in our field, I think we can be very passionate about people in recovery. Right. And so that's what my lane is. My lane isn't everything. Certain people have different things that are important to them. My thing that's important to me is.

I want to have the biggest stage that I can share this message because if I can do this, you could do this. And I want to create opportunities for people to have this experience in life. . And I want to inspire families to make changes that my family made. , and so with that,  I'm going to try and identify what's already preexisting, so depending on what your purpose is, try and identify  advocacy campaigns and see if those are aligned with what your purpose is.

So we did some of those things and I was able to join some different committees with already established people that I could learn from, right. And that I could actively participate, that I could volunteer things for  after that. , I think If you're interested in starting something more grassroots, you need to find a committee of people that are committed to doing that with you.

Right. So you got to find other like minded people that are willing to understand more. And then we have to provide education regarding,  how we can be a little bit louder together than we can apart. Right.   And so, and then the next thing is once we have identified what is out there and what aligns with our  And who is in our corner and who's going to bat with us, then we actually can go make appointments with our legislators, whether they be House reps, Senate  representatives in the state or nationally, so that we can talk with them about.

active legislation that is relative to our purpose, right? And then if we can continue to establish ourselves in a more significant way, then what we can do is actually as a result of our representations, all the organizations, um, unions that are represented, we can actually influence legislation that's relative to these topics that are important to us.

What do we want to see done with this COVID relief money? Well, we think that, , people should have access to mental health care as a result of the COVID 19 pandemic. Therefore, we're asking for these appropriations to be allocated to these services. So that's just an example. There are a lot of things that can be done, , to benefit all organizations, all people in need of support.

And the way we need to do it is through advocacy campaigning. It

 Casey, , when you're talking about this, ,   you've taken action, you've been biased towards action, and you've jumped in, and,  the space makes that challenging for a number of reasons, right? Stigma, number one. , and being public and open about this thing that people have tried to keep quiet for a long time. With, you know, there's shame, guilt, humiliation, and embarrassment associated with alcoholism.  still exists.  My sponsor, I'm a 12 step guy. He has really good advice and I've been in the field of great coaching throughout my life. He says, do it scared.  Old coach of mine, a football coach, he said, don't ever wait to be anointed as a leader.  Jump in.  if you've been in this imposter syndrome too, you're like, why me? Right? So where did you get the courage? Casey to say, I'm going to be a part of the solution.  you you've moved fast, right? And you've, you've become a leader,  In a short amount of time.  Where did that come from?   

comes from the 12 step program, really. I mean, it's one of those things where  when we're asked to show up, we have an opportunity to show up,   you can't pretend to show up. You either do or you don't. . And , I've just been really blessed with opportunities as a result of who I've surrounded myself within the field.

Guys like Bobby guys, like Gary, people like Sherry Layton,  , the list goes on, , I've, learned a lot from them and I've contributed a lot. And,  as a result of that, now I have message to share and I have an experience that can benefit other professionals  and people in our field. But really simple answer was, yes, I'll do that and I'll learn and I'll participate.

And, , I learned that from Alcoholics Anonymous.

 Yes, you are practicing these principles and all your affairs, my friend.

That's

is a chapter called into action and I get inspired  I see other people doing it, that inspires me to do the same and the fellowship.  You know, when you get a chip recovery service, unity, , the fellowship that, that I feel, and I've been a part of great teams, ,  athletically and business, but being part of the fellowship of recovery is different.  You guys, I think do it as well as anyone with Jay Walker Lodge and Casey, this community that you've been a part of, that you've helped to create with Bobby and all these other people.  As a relative newcomer, me personally, Cliff McDonald to this industry, I have felt  reached out to me. Please join us.  a part of this when you guys didn't even know me.  first of all, I want to thank you for that, ? Because , it's enriched my experience as someone in recovery and as someone in this industry,  is that how intentional is that, right? Like you guys have these awesome events and yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, I think

of

 everything we do is intentional, right? I mean, we want to create an inclusive space. I remember, I know what it was like to be the newcomer in that room with the clammy hands, , raising my hand. I know what it's like to be  with a new guy at the conference with a company credit card, not exactly sure what to spend it on or who to meet to create opportunities for our organization.

And so a lot of these things that we do are as a result of these experiences that we've had. And you know, just like an AA, when the hand of the newcomer reaches out, I'm responsible, . And I feel a similar responsibility in my profession to support and nurture people ,  and put my best foot forward, .

And have an opportunity to show up and be helpful in any capacity that I can and invite people in. One of the things we say here and Cliff, you got to experience that when you came is the closer you get, the better it looks, right? The better it, the reason it looks better is because all the people are committed to these same ideals, ?

They're all showing up authentically. They're all willing to do this work, and they're doing it at a very high level with a lot of integrity. 

 Yeah, absolutely. And the more time you spend in these communities and in these fellowship, ,  more inspired you become and the more you practice those principles as well. You see, as you know, Dr Mahala is a clinician.  , what I see in the short time I've been in the field is specialization works.  you guys have a very, very specific persona, archetype, whatever you want to call it that you treat. And your outcomes look fantastic.  us a little bit about Jay Walker Lodge and how it was formed and maybe for the people that don't know elaborate on that specialization then the fellowship and the community that you've created, and I'm throwing a lot at you, the family thing too, right?

So like talk, please about Jay Walker. You guys are fantastic. And we'd love to hear more about that.

 Yeah. So we'll start with Jay Walker. Cause you know, that could be a mouthful in itself, but, uh, Jay Walker has been here for the last 20 years. , 2025, we're going to be celebrating our 20 year anniversary. So it's a very special year coming up in just 12 days that we're very excited about.  Our founder is Bob Ferguson.

, he is an upper East side, , Manhattan guy who went to Hazelden, , 30 something years ago with a one way ticket. And, , parents that said, we're no longer concerned about what your ideas of aftercare are. We're going to listen to the clinicians that are there. And when he was there, he engaged in a program called Jelinek.

That was a program for chronic relapsers. And he learned a lot about himself throughout that experience. And he learned that from the other men that he was in care with. And he ended up getting sober there in a similar way likely that you and I did. Cliff and he stayed there for some time. Bob worked as the director of alumni services for Hazelden for many years.

He also traveled the country and worked for programs like Crossroads Antigua and Promises Malibu.  20 years ago there were a lot of the Hazelden Models. It was a Minnesota model, 30 days of treatment, high intensity, leveraging containment,  and then going to sober living. And for guys like Bob guys, like me guys, like a lot of the guys we treat here at Jay Walker,  they would find themselves in repetition, going to the 30 day model into sober living.

They were really, really great at treatment.  They were really, really bad at recovery.  And so he thought that there had to be a better place , and there had to be a better way.  He thought if you could have a promises in Malibu, you could have one here in Aspen.  He looked around for quite some time and he found a building right on main street in Carbondale.

That's not necessarily a secluded break from reality. In the same way that you would see in containment models that are mostly in campus environments. This is a building that's located right on Main Street in Carbondale, Colorado, in the center of a town.  How would we do treatment, , over a longer period of time with these men in this community environment?

And so they created an open community model of care.  Which is the same model of care that we emphasize in our program today, where we're in a very active bunch and we're leveraging not   containment, but we're leveraging a community. We're leveraging an experience together. We're leveraging an alumni community, a greater Carbondale 12 step community, and we're leveraging an outdoor experience together.

. We're in one of the most beautiful geographic regions in the entire country.  Jaywalker today has four different 90 day programs that span across an entire year.  So we're able to transform people's lives and we're not just talking about transforming the lives of the individual that comes here because every individual that comes here is supported by a family that needs to participate in the transformation as well, ?

And so we're transforming family systems over a period of time here in our sleepy 20 years. And it's the most incredible experience that you can imagine for this person. and I say this person. Our average person is between 22 and 38 years old. They've typically had a previous treatment experience. They can be really good at treatment, really bad at recovery. 

Our guy is typically from a more metropolitan area.  If you look at our website, the first thing you're going to see is Where men come for treatment and stay for recovery.  The best outcomes we believe happen here in Carbondale as a result of putting this very, very similar group together. That's experiencing a high level of relativity  in supporting them, not through the medical, but Or the clinical or the psychiatric lens, but supporting them from a recovery lens that's supported by high quality, psychiatric, high quality, therapeutic in an incredible alumni community, 65 percent of the people that work here at Jay Walker are graduates of our program  that includes our CEO and chief clinical officer. 

We have about 400 men that live in the Roaring Fork Valley that are participating in our alumni program, which is right there with one of the top alumni programs in the country.  , if you look at our website, you'll see we're a very active bunch. Jay Walker employs a full time wellness director and four different, , outdoor experts to support our men and experiences on a daily basis.

We spend a little bit more time outside of the building than we do in them.  Because we believe that it'll be as a result of the relationships that our men make together, building friendships, being authentic with each other, trusting in the staff, trusting in one another,  that a true and authentic recovery experience can happen. 

At the same time that these things are happening here, , at Jaywalker, in Carbondale, our families are engaged in a process, learning more about themselves as parents, decisions that they make, they're psychoeducated  on many different aspects of  Substance use, mental health, trauma, codependency, they're working independently with a licensed therapist who's got over 30 years of experience.

He's a  Amazon bestseller. He's written many books. His name's Kevin Peterson. Some of you know him. He's our director of family services, and he's working with them independently every week.  Families are also engaged in group therapies on a weekly basis, and every five weeks we do a on site family program. 

So we're very, very committed to not only providing an incredible recovery experience for the individual,  but an unbelievable, life changing, and impactful experience for the family that supports that person.



 Thank you for sharing that. I think it's so important to hear and what I was hearing, I just am giving some reflection here. It was just the importance of that integrative factor, which is something that I, as a provider, I'm very passionate about.  it's so exciting to hear that Jay Walker has been doing this , and, , the foundation , is definitely, you can see it in the foundation.

So that's, thank you for that.  that's wonderful.  yeah, 

, and   family work. Is a requirement. Is that correct?

it is so you can't send your loved one to Jay Walker and be non participatory as a family member. We don't believe it'll create a successful outcome. Therefore, we can't participate in that. It's an ethical guideline that we have. , I know a lot of other providers don't share that same experience, but for us, we believe that everybody in the family deserves an opportunity to heal.

And it's such an important part of creating , successful outcomes. It would be a disservice to the individual and the family, , in our opinion, not to be able to provide those services. 

 I love it so much and I love that you guys have the courage to make it a requirement.  there's a lot of providers that might have a theory  that would be the most effective, but.  might get apprehension from some other family members and say, I'm not the problem. It's Billy. So Billy is going to get the work and you guys say, nope.

Sorry. We don't see that level of discipline. Often, and thank you for doing that. You know, we've been told for a long time. This is a family disease.  I know in my family, that's certainly the case and I'm not taking anyone else's inventory Casey But there's some people that probably should be doing some work that they haven't right?

We know that 

Of course, 

 think,  my other question is  Burnout, resilience, right? We know as providers in the field , and doing all the advocacy efforts and maintaining our own recovery takes a lot. How do you  all of that? How do you manage your own mental health and prevent burnout while you're doing all of this? 

 I always have something to look forward to.   I literally always have something to look forward to.  That's what keeps me working hard and committed and passionate about what I do on a daily basis here. , I share the responsibility of leading the organization and different aspects of it. , our department does a weekly meeting here.

, in that, , we talk about self care, my admissions reps, my, , representatives of outreach, , my alumni directors, you know, , what are we looking forward to? , what does our family time look like? When are we gonna take some PTO? I'm only good to you if I'm good to myself, , and I learned that relatively quickly.

I also learned that , my clients or my job is not my recovery that I have to participate. I get to participate in a 12 step community in the last. And part of this I would say is most people in our field would say, I probably have the best job in our field, right? I, , get to do what I enjoy. 

, it's incredible. I love to ski. I love to golf. I am in heaven here. , there's not one day that goes by here that it feels like work to me. ,

I'm a close second, buddy

yeah, yeah, it feels like I'm doing what I want to do because it's so relative to my purpose. I can't wait for the family to call. 

You know, I can't wait to hear what they've experienced so that we can inspire them to make changes to support their loved one. My guys are sitting over there waiting right now so they can talk to that guy and share their experience of how Jay Walker changed their life so they can inspire him to make those changes.

, it's just wonderful. And, , I get so many opportunities to connect with people in our field that are just doing incredible work across the country. , you guys doing what you do and other organizations and putting people together and, , creating space for those opportunities that we can learn from each other and continue to grow in this thing, you know?

So the simple answer for me is that I always need to have something to look forward to. 

Okay.

I always do.

 Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.  . So we usually land on one of our favorite questions. But before I do, , Cliff, did you have anything else that you wanted to add or ask? 

Oh, I got come on. I Casey I could I could hang with you all day brother and So no, I I know we have to stop at some point. Um, this was really rich though and  Heading into the holiday season. Uh, just really really grateful Casey that you made the time for us and You  I hope we get some more quality time together soon.

I think we will. I think we will. Cliff

yeah, for

let's go.

So the last question that we always like to ask is, what does recovery mean to you? 

 Yeah.  I think about this one often. I think it means everything to me. I mean, I'm fully understanding that my life is absolutely contingent on my recovery,   my first job title is I'm Casey. I'm an alcoholic.  It's not Casey Gooding, chief marketing officer at Jay Walker.

It's not, , advocacy champion. It's not recovery, passion, , uh, any of that kind of stuff. It's not dad. It's not brother. It's not any of those things, right? , recovery  was the last thing that I ever tried. And the only thing that ever worked for me, there's nothing that I wouldn't do to support other people with an opportunity to find what I found.

And oftentimes I feel like if you can just find A little bit of what I've found, it would be enough to  encourage you to continue this journey. , it's been the best journey that I can ever think of. And it's my greatest accomplishment in life. So the simple answer to that for me is what does recovery mean to me?

It means everything to me. .

Yeah. 

  📍  Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of the recovery. com podcast for additional information, resources, and to access treatment options, please visit our website at recovery. com. We appreciate your listenership and are excited to have you join us on our next show coming soon.