Welcome to the recovery. com podcast. I'm Dr. Mala, your host. And today I'm joined with fellow host, Amanda Upoff. Hi, Amanda. 

Hi, everyone.

us today is Caroline Beidler, a leader in global recovery advocacy, acclaimed author, and founder of impactful initiatives that span from local communities to international stages.

So excited to have you here with us, Caroline. Welcome. 

Oh, thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Wonderful. So Caroline, your story is one of resilience and transformation. Could you tell us about your journey and, , what are some of the defining moments that have occurred that are part of your own recovery journey? , and what ultimately ignited your passion for a career in this field? 

 Hmm.  Great question. Very big question. And I love it because, you know, recovery for me has been all about finding my purpose. And I think through my own journey of struggle with substance use disorder and struggle with mental health challenges and trauma, I've been able to move through that, receive the treatment and support that I've needed, find and really connect with the recovery community.

And now move into this place of being able to give back and be able, being able to walk in my purpose, which has just been such a transformational  thing for me and, um, transformational journey.  I think, you know, one of the moments that really sticks out for me in terms of when I knew that I wanted to spend my life working in the recovery field, not only being in recovery personally, but.  Being an active part of helping the community. I met a woman, young woman. She was in college named Alex. And at the time I was volunteering as a mentor at an outpatient treatment facility and I met Alex and she was struggling and we would meet, , we would go to meetings together. We would sit, I remember sitting outside at a picnic table with her, you know, days like it is today out here in Eastern Tennessee, , leaves, , changing color and beautiful sunshine. And  would tell me stories from her life. And as she shared her stories with me. , I had the opportunity to share stories from my life with her, and we just have this kindred connection and, , throughout my life in recovery, I found that so often that when we share our stories with each other, we really find  in that connection. In them, you know, because I could hear my story reflected back to me from what Alex shared and she was moved by my story and felt like, she now was able to connect with someone and she didn't feel as alone in her addiction and Alex, , went on to continue to get treatment.  But unfortunately, , she did not have access to some types of recovery services, like housing, , I think at that time, , our city did not have a collegiate recovery program.

And so some of the other support she really needed at the time she didn't have. And unfortunately, , she used just that one more time.  And for her, that, that meant loss of her life ,  just such a tragedy and,  such a hard thing for me, even still, it's been over a decade to talk about. And I think what Alex taught me and what her life taught me is that we need access to different types of supports, treatment, and also recovery services,  that our stories matter. So, so much and we can actually share our recovery stories for a purpose, and so I think a lot of the things that I've been involved in have been, building these supports that Alex and women like Alex and people like her have needed that I've needed personally.

, throughout my journey and also, , anytime I feel like we can share our stories with each other, there is just such power and meaning in that. And Alex's story lives on today, through the work that I do. And I've talked to so many other family members who've lost loved ones.  is heartbreaking and so tragic.  And at the same time, you see how our loved ones that we've lost to addiction, their memory lives on through the work that we do today. that's a beautiful way that. Our stories and their stories, all of our stories, , can be redeemed , for good. So when I'm asked that question, Alex is immediately, the person I think about when I think about why I do what I do today. 

 It's absolutely beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.  Amanda, you had a beautiful way of framing it. So I'll let you take the lead for the question.

Yes, Caroline. First of all, such a fan. Love your writing. , was so thrilled to be talking to you today. But, , my favorite way of hearing from people is to hear what it was like. What happened? And what it's like now. love to hear about those turning points. We talk about turning points a lot on our podcast. , and they can be many right and in various stages of recovery. , but, , if you can just talk a little bit about what, , your life was like in use and what happened and anything you'd like to share about the now?

 Yes. Yes. I love that. And as  , a writer who's very type aid, the organization of what it was like, what happened and what it's like now I'm like, yes. Yes. It's like an outline for how we can share our stories. It's so beautiful. And I grew up in 12 step recovery. And so I just love even going to speaker meetings where they would introduce themselves and say they were going to share that way.

I'm like, yes, thank you for, , a foundation that we can kind of rest our stories on.  I grew up in an alcoholic home.  of instability, just not a lot of presence in terms of emotional support.  My mother also struggled significantly with mental health and her own trauma and her own challenges.  And so she left my brother and I, when we were very young, I think I was about three. And so, , I look back on my childhood  First of all, I don't remember a lot, which is probably my mind protecting me from some of the trauma I experienced. But what I do recall is just feelings very untethered, very like I don't have a foundation.

I don't have stability to rest on or people that I can really count on. The one person that I really could count on was my grandfather on my dad's side. And, , my dad worked a lot, so there was, , the drinking and then the workaholism and the  never being there. And, , my mom was gone.  so we spend a lot of time with my grandpa and  I remember feeling really loved with him, but.  that instability, because it was like something wasn't quite right, , I didn't have that grounding and in a loving, stable home, you know, certainly my parents loved me and I've done a lot of work around forgiveness and certainly, , working the steps and things like that, which has definitely helped,  and I recognize they did the best they could.

But I think that starting point for me, how it started was me wanting to find some type of Security, some type of stability. So when things started happening, , that were really hard for me, like when my grandfather passed away, I remember reaching immediately for alcohol because in my house, that's what I learned early on.

We did, you know, if someone was upset, , if my dad had a bad day at work, , you drink. If there's something to celebrate, if there's a,  football game or a wedding , you drink it's every day, this is what you do. , and it was accessible. So as , 11, 12, 13 year old, I started drinking and I noticed immediately when I took that first drink that we often, , hear people say,  I felt like I finally had some type of solution. I started to, I felt comfortable in my skin for the first time. I felt like, okay, , I'm going to be okay. That just comfort and stability. And certainly it was something that worked for a little bit of time at that point, but then quickly stopped working. , because I immediately, I knew that I wasn't drinking  Like other people, I mean, I was a kid, , not all kids start drinking. , that was one of my first indicators there was something going on. , , my alcohol use quickly spun into, , drug use. And, , as a very young teen, I experienced, , sexual assault, , and some other experiences that I think only catapulted me further into wanting to use.

to escape that. So it became this  cycle of, , trauma, feeling alone, , not belonging, feeling uncomfortable in my skin, using, drinking, more trauma. And it just kept cycling on and on and on. And I think, , as a woman in particular, and that's why I'm so passionate about Talking about women's issues too.

I think  we can have, , these situations where we can be uniquely impacted,  because of some of the situations we are into. And then also,  for my day job, I do a lot of research, , , I mean, the statistics on women specifically who end up developing. Post traumatic stress disorder, , during substance use or who have experienced trauma like sexual violence. It's so astronomically high, that,  it's one of the reasons I'm very passionate about talking about this. , so what it was like, it was really hard. I mean, it was really hard from when I was a kid and then I started experiencing these traumas.  my first time in addiction treatment was as a teenager and,  even , , my parents were like, , something's not right. I did treatment a couple of times and, , I can connect with Alex, , where I needed more support that wasn't there.

I think it, it could have been really helpful for me. So when I left treatment,  went right back to the same high school, , that I, , got sick in. And I remember the first day back from  , my first time in treatment and walking down the hall. And,  I was, Excited to be back. I had some sobriety, , time behind me, not a ton, but, , enough to feel like, okay, I think I want to do something different this time. And I remember walking down the hall and then all of a sudden I just heard  , the calling and the names and the, , druggy and loser and, , all of these, , stigmatizing labels. And it was like, I was immediately thrown back into this, the cycle,  the wanting to escape those feelings and the shame.

And, , and that would last until I was about 28, , the back and the fourth, , I was able to, , stop using, , illicit drugs,  earlier on, but, , between alcohol and, , cannabis and, , relationships and food. , I was using other things to still try to  comfort myself.

Still trying to find that stability. , but what ultimately, , helped, , get me out of that cycle and out of that pattern was connecting with actually , that outpatient treatment center I mentioned, , where I met Alex, but I met. I finally met a group of people that felt like my people, like that safety and that security that I was looking for, , for so long found in a room in a circle of chairs.

That's why I call my, ,  writings a circle of chairs. But in a circle of chairs, I found people who experienced what I did.  who talked about it, who talked about the trauma and talked about the really, really hard things  talked about feeling uncomfortable just  sitting in a room, , I thought I was the only one that just had a hard time making eye contact with people.

Or, , I got to a point where I couldn't even go to the grocery store. I was just. terrified to be around people. I started learning that some of these things about me,  I wasn't,   out of my mind, you know, I was to call myself crazy all the time. And I hate, I just, I, that word really bothers me because, , it wasn't that it was what I had experienced.

And so when I started to hear my stories. Reflected back to me, it was like something just clicked  it kept clicking and that like realization that I wasn't alone really propelled me further along into finally a healing journey and what I had been looking  for so long, which was  home and a family,  and I found that in recovery and that's just, , 

I'm gonna get emotional. I don't have any Kleenex, which is like I should have Kleenex. I always I need Kleenex by me at all times. People who know I speak know this about because I'm always crying. So it'll probably come. It'll probably happen. But I get emotional because it's so overwhelming  the places that we start. To where we can come into and where we can be led through, , that transformational journey of recovery is so, so powerful. And it's so beautiful, , through addiction treatment and through those services and recovery supports where, and meetings and different things where we can literally just sit in a room with each other and share and just feel the sense of at homeness and belonging.

And it's so beautiful. And so, , today I try to share that with others. In everything that I do. I am so grateful that I get to do that through writing. , and that has always been a dream. Even when I was a little girl, , at my grandpa's house, I remember reading books and even writing, , little stories.

I've always loved words. , and there's so much power and healing in words. And so I get to do that today. And I've also spent, , a lot of my life building services. , for my day job, I get to do a lot of research and writing for, , the federal government for, , agencies that help support, , folks like myself in or seeking recovery.

And so I get to do a lot of really awesome things, , all centered on, , that  hope that I have that other people can find what I've found. , so that's a little bit about, , what it was like, what happened and what it's like now, but  I could really go on and on about what it's like now, because , that's the part that I'm really like loving these days.

So.

 Amanda. Was there something that you wanted to jump into first?  Yeah.

Many things. So I also, , found that same circle of chairs that you did that, , treatment center on the corner of Whitney way and university. And, , yeah. Yeah, legitimate. The same place and I think probably the same room. , I'm also a mentor through that program. , and I do credit that program with what was my turning point. , Caroline, I'm curious, you had mentioned going to treatment a few times. Did you end up doing that outpatient program  that facility  or was it just that circle of chairs that was your turning point? Did you not need, , anything else? I'm curious.

Yeah. Great question. And it's amazing. Where are my tissues? I love that we basically, , receive support at the same location on planet earth. Like how amazing is that? , and what a small world. So that's beautiful. , I received a lot of different type of support. I think where I initially connected was there.

So at outpatient treatment, we had a group and it was specifically for at that time, , I'm in my forties now, so I don't know if I technically could go to the young person's group. Probably not. They'd be like, you're way too old. You have a side part. Get out here. , but okay,

Yeah. , old person's group is also not quite right.

we need our own group. It's like the  You know, I don't even know what to call us. ,  so I started there, but , I did a lot of different pathways of recovery. So, ,  traditional 12 step fellowship, I also received mental health counseling, , specifically for trauma. And we worked through, , I'm a huge proponent of this.

It's called seeking safety. So it's a model of treatment that a lot of folks do. , a lot of treatment centers, , do , so I've had different types of support and I think for me, , and everyone's story is different, but for me, I've needed different things at different times. So even in, , 2020 where, , we all were.

I don't know where you all were, but a lot of us were in the same place, , mentally too.  I realized even though I had a decade plus in recovery, I needed some extra support, you know? So I went to see a therapist again and I talked to my therapist about, , medications to support my mental health.

, so at different points in my journey, In sobriety or not, , all along the path, I've needed different things at different times. So I'm a huge proponent of learning about the different pathways to recovery that we can find and the different pathways of recovery that there are. So the different types of treatment, , whether that's inpatient, outpatient, , seeing a counselor, seeing a therapist,  those groups, , and recovery support services that are community based, , there's all sorts of options.

And.  Opportunities, but how awesome that, , we started in the same place, possibly in the same room. If you've read one of my book, well, maybe both my books. I write about, , that place. Oh, there they are. Oh, oh,  beautiful.  so  I do write about,  those experiences cause they were so, so impactful. 

 And I love to hear you talk about, , women supporting women and how that's a unique experience. ,  Story , is. Not all that different from yours. , and I think, like you said, it's so, so common, , for women when they're under the influence to, , just  things happen. , and, ,  a woman's group was particularly helpful for me.

And as I found my way toward recovery, , can you talk more about what's so special about women supporting women? 

 Yeah, I love that. And, , and , you touched on something really important. It's very true. So many of us have experienced the , similar things. Yet I think sometimes in some recovery pathways, we're taught that we can't talk about  experiences, that we have to only talk about,  this, or we, Alcohol or we only have to talk.

So having those spaces where we can talk about things that impact us, but doing so in a place that feels safe for us, , and for a lot of my life,  in a room with men or being in a room with women or whoever you are, like I wasn't comfortable in any sort of circles , there was no room where I felt.

Okay. But the longer that I was. In recovery and getting help and connecting with people. I started to build that trust and learn that, you know what  women  that there are people that I can trust and get close to. And I've had a handful of women that really, you know, even as a late 20 something taught me how to be a friend. They taught me, , that women can show up and are loving and supporting and supportive. And,  there's something really special about being able to sit in a space with women and just feeling that safety and feeling that  acknowledgement, like, oh, we know,  sometimes you don't even have to Say it.

It's like when you say I've been through that or I've been through what you've been through. , I know in my mind what you're, what you talking about. Cause we've, we just have this connection and this kindred ness,  I think it's really, really important to have. Those specific groups, whether it's based on gender or whatever it's based on, , because, , for many of us, especially with trauma histories, we need to feel safe in order to open up.

And if we're not going to open up or, , share or be receptive to listening, it could really stunt or halt our.  So I think it's really important to offer that. And,  I do a lot of mentoring women behind the scenes. , I share a lot that, , what I do public facing, , writing books, talking on social media, , doing all these things.

Like the really special stuff happens behind the scenes that no one will ever see, , and that's really where my heart is. , and.  of those experiences and the women that I talk with, , it's amazing, but not surprising how often there are issues because there aren't those, , , , women's specific, , services.

  Yeah. I think, , one thing I wanted to go into was that sense of  isolation transitioning into. That feeling of connectedness, which my goodness, it's so wonderful to hear that you were able to get that I think so many people, , and I'm taking my clinical hat off just for a second because, ,  when you're on your journey, when you've experienced all these traumas, when you consistently get hit with these negative narratives.

We feel alone.

 Yeah,

what's the bridge between feeling alone and getting to that place of connectedness? What motivated you, what inspired you to take yourself from, you know what, I'm feeling alone, but I'm going to take this chance    

I think that's such an important question. So at this particular treatments facility that I was a part of this outpatient center,  the director basically, , have this program where if you had a certain amount of sobriety time, you could Volunteer and be a mentor and help other people.

And I had , very small amount of spry anytime, , when she asked if I would be a mentor, I think it was like four months or something like that, , and I remember feeling like, oh my gosh, there's nothing I can help. No one I can help. , I can barely, , tie my shoes. Like , who am I going to help?

What am I going to be able to do? And,  But what I learned was that opportunity to give back, which is part of the recovery process, being of service saved my life because all of a sudden my getting sober, my staying in recovery, wasn't just about me.  It was about being able to be of service to others.

And I found a purpose for what I had been through. So I think for me, when, , I had been through so many hard things and for so many years, I had. Resentment and pain and grief and just all this unresolved trauma  through giving back and being of service to other people who are walking in the same road that I had been on  a purpose for what I had been through was just like transformative.

And I wish I had the words to explain what happens in that space. And I don't think I do as a writer. That's really frustrating for me  But something beautiful and something I want to say miraculous happens when we're able to use some of what we have been through to help another human being. And, , if I wouldn't have gotten that opportunity at four months over, I don't know if I would be sitting here today. , I really don't. , it just, it was so empowering and it just made me feel like my life has purpose. And my life has value and I can keep going. There's a reason to keep going, , and then Alex became my reason. And then other women like Alex became my reason. And today, , I have a family of my own who are definitely my reason. And, , I get to write books, , which is a beautiful opportunity to show up for people, , in a similar way and , hopefully , help someone along the way. 

 I love it. That's so beautiful. I 

, I just think it's something to do with, , seeing and being seen  and completely.  and for someone who, , knows, , understands it's that all of those ingredients together required for that magic to happen. And,

It

, for someone to just know your soul , in just an hour, , it's pretty special. 

definitely is.

, what is your advice to people who are trying to bridge that gap and trying to get to that place of connection? ,

 Well, , I actually was meeting , with the woman that , I'm mentoring and , she is struggling and she has, I think eight months or something of sobriety time. And,, we were talking and I said, , I think there's this place that really needs someone to help facilitate a meeting and you have so much, I told her you have so much to offer. And so much wisdom to share. There's these women coming who have a day, , sometimes not even , of sobriety time. And I wish I could just, well, I won't forget it. Cause it's  burned into my brain, but the way her face and her eyes lit up when I said that she has so much to give was just priceless.  , I think in recovery, we don't think about enough how important it is that purpose piece. So when we're in addiction treatment and we're learning about, , what, , our  substance use does to , our physiology, to our neurobiology, , our brains, how, what, how it impacts our relationships. , that's really important when we learn about relapse prevention, that's super important when we learn about, , how to support our recovery, a hundred percent, really important, but what's next. , I think we need to communicate and do a better job of people. I'm putting on my advocacy hat on y'all, ,  of communicating the opportunities to be of service , and use our lives.

, and that's why I love when I hear about people in recovery, , who are now, , starting organizations, being recovery coaches, , doing the thing, going back to school to be a counselor. , running podcasts. , when people are doing these things, , it's an amazing opportunity. So,  I would love to see more people talking about that. I might actually be writing. A new book at some point soon here, , that might be talking about that a little bit, but , I'm very passionate about this idea of purpose,  in recovery because it is so, so healing and helps many of us. I'm raising my hand here.

Stay in recovery. 

 no, absolutely. You do so much  to rally and to advocate. , as you mentioned, so can you share with us, you have an annual event, right? . Can you share with our audience what that's about and how it's evolved?

 Yes. Yes. So international women's day, which is every year on March 8th. , very big day back in 2020. I was just feeling this pull again to community and to being with other women. And so I reached out to other women leaders that I knew, , in the U S , and some in other countries and everyone, , I pitched this idea of like, Hey, why don't we just get together virtually on international women's day and talk about recovery and talk about women's recovery.

And it was so cool. So amazing. Cause everyone I called was like, , yeah, let's do that. Why haven't we done this before? , so I think the first year, like 40 organizations globally, , signed onto this and it was just kind of like this, , really grassroots.  And, , over the past couple of years,  it's evolved and, , I've worked with different organizations to support it.

, I'm looking at working with a new organization for this next year. , but one of my goals is just to  women's recovery. And help us, , continue to feel that we're not alone and find a space where we can talk about the issues  that matter to us. And I think one of the really cool things about the event is that, , I know for me personally, I can get stuck in this, , very Western mindset of recovery and, , maybe the struggles we have and the resources we have or, , but to hear about what's happening in other countries. It's like, Whoa,  so important to think about globally, , what is it like for women? And, , , it was really eyeopening to me the first year and continues to be, I'm really hoping there'll be more, , Folks involved , from different countries this year.  Yeah, so there continues to be support.

And so every year, March 8th, , we do a virtual event this year. I'm actually hoping to encourage people to have watch parties. So doing their own in their local place. , and then we'll have a live or recorded link to watch, , a panel of global, , women talking about recovery. So I'm really excited about it. hope you both will be there and be involved. , so we can definitely stay in touch and keep talking about

 100%. And Thank you for that. , circle of chairs. , let's go back to that as well.  You've united supporters worldwide. You've created a space for solidarity and recovery. What was your vision for that platform and what surprised you the most about the community that it's become? 

 That's a great question. Well, I think first off, I didn't really anticipate how quickly, , the community would grow, , which is really awesome. And I think there's just this, ,  Receptivity or this, , feeling of like, yes, , I want in when we're asked to share our stories. And I think there's a reason for that.

And one of those reasons is because personally we know how powerful it is for our own recovery when we hear our story reflected back to us.  , when I was really moved to start circle of chairs, it was 2020, I was entering a really tough season for a lot of reasons and, , really felt like. My mental health was struggling again. , I was still in recovery, but challenged, , needed to seek outside support again. And I needed so desperately to hear my story again to hear my story reflected back. I needed to connect with other people through stories. , , so I had this idea to start a storytelling platform, , and we've had so many folks, , Sending stories and being like, you know what?

I want to tell my story. I want to share my story to help someone else. And , I love doing that and being able to help facilitate, , that process and hearing other people's stories. And then also, , the incredible. Things that people are doing. Talk about purpose, like the work. , a lot of the stories that we've,  curated and collected have been people who have started organizations and, , advocated and, or even,  started families in recovery or went back to school.

And there's just so many really. hopeful, encouraging stories. And so I think being able to continue to share that. And, , as a researcher for my day job, , what's really cool about storytelling is , we know from our experience that stories move us and stories change us. , what the research shows is actually when we share our recovery stories, stigma is decreased. And when that stigma or that sense of like, we're different, we should be ashamed. We don't belong. When stigma is decreased, more people access help, more people access treatment. ,  , so there's so many, I think things behind what circle of chairs is and does, , that I'm just really excited to see it grow and hopefully go to the next level to be able to reach more people, to provide more support, to decrease that stigma.

So ultimately more people can get the help they need.



So, , ultimately I'm really passionate about seeing circle of chairs grow to be able to help reduce that stigma, help more people access the support they need and help those of us in our seeking recovery, hear our stories and to be able to share those. So it's so empowering and just hope

 Yeah, absolutely. I love the work that you're doing there and I'm so excited to see that grow as well. , you mentioned family recovery  and family recovery has taken you to the front lines of this very global issue. So what have you discovered about the unique struggles and resilience of families dealing with recovery? 

What do you think is not still being understood? 

 Well, , families are near and dear to my heart. I think when,  It's about a year ago, I have six year old twins and my son came to me,  and I was going weekly, , I still do recovery supports. And so I was going to a recovery support and told my kids,  and my five year old son at the time said, , mommy, what's recovery.  And it was so interesting because I was like really taken aback because we've talked about it a little bit, , but now that they're a certain age, it's , okay, we're going to have this conversation. And so my husband and I started talking and, , he was saying, well, when we first met, he's not in recovery when we first met, he's like, I really had no idea what recovery was. I really had no idea what a journey through substance use disorder, what it meant , , and so I started to think about what I had been through from the perspective of families and certainly in talking with my parents, , they were not perfect and had their own struggles, but they tried to help me the best they could. , they tried to help me access treatment at different points. So thinking about my journey from a perspective  of family members has been so, so enlightening. And I think, , on a global scale, certainly nationally, but a global scale, there's a real lack of  around family support and what works.

There's a lack of advocacy, , there's a lack of treatment options and really a lack of support. And , Well, you're getting to know me.  When there's a lack of something, I'm like, all right, , let's get some people together and , let's do something. So I'm actually part of a global research initiative as well, called the Global Family Recovery Alliance. And we are just kind of a ragtag group of researchers and writers and different folks who care about family recovery. And so we're actually , going to be hopefully identifying some of the questions that you just shared, , like what is missing when it comes to family recovery support, what do families need? , and the way that we're going to be going about, or that we've already started going about this research is, , meeting with family members. And meeting with people who are on the front lines, , working in organizations, , family who have lost loved ones, family who are walking alongside their loved one in recovery. So, really a grassroots effort again, to understand the issue and then help create policy research agendas. Support for family members. So I'm super excited, humbled, , sometimes a little overwhelmed because there's so much to do and so much work, but it's really exciting. And so part of that, , I'm hoping to is to bring stories, , through circle of chairs, of family members and their experiences and, , really opening it up and , every week I get to do interviews with.

With family members, affected family members. And it's one of my favorite things that I'm doing right now and listening to stories and hearing experience. And it was so interesting because what I'm hearing  is not  to what I have heard in rooms of my own recovery journey, which is a lot of people are feeling the stigma and feeling shame and feeling  asking for help, , and a lot of people. At the same time, when they do access, the help they need are feeling connection and support and belonging, and they're hearing their story and they're feeling not alone anymore, , and they're entering their own recovery. So, , yeah, there's a lot going on. A lot of opportunity, I think, and there's also some really amazing things being done around the world, , to support family recovery.

So, , stay tuned. I think there's going to definitely be more. , I do have another book coming the spring of 2026, which I'm super excited about, , which may or may not revolve around family recovery. It does. It definitely does. ,  , so I'm going to be exploring this issue more, but yeah, I definitely want to be.

Sharing more between now and then to, , with circle of chairs, , and on other platforms because it is so, so important. We're really walking this journey together, , and it's so interesting that , when it comes down to it, there's sometimes not as much difference between those of us in are seeking recovery for our own substance use disorder. And our family members. I 

 100%. I love it. I love it. I'm so excited to see and hear and read and all the things. Yeah. Amanda, go for it.

 Right. It's so important. And it's, so true. It changes, right? Like the way I communicated with my parents about my substance use disorder, the way I communicated with my small children about it. And now they're, , in their late teens and early twenties, and I'm communicating in a whole different way about it.

And it's  a conversation that needs to keep going and evolving. And  just, it just needs to keep, it just

You know,

going.

it's such a, an important point, Amanda, that you make absolutely Caroline as well. I mean, that conversation, right? So many people get afraid. Families are afraid of starting the conversation, right?, What are your recommendations? for getting it going, , for taking , that jump and leap and saying, nope, we're going to do this.

 I can attest also for my own family, ,  obviously mental health, , is a very strong part of our family conversations , and  experiences and all of the things, but not everybody has, , My background, right? To be able to encourage that. What do you recommend?

 mean, that's a great question. And I think something that we're exploring through this research is what is working when it  to  initiating this support. And, , I'm thinking back to this, , mother that I talked to, who was like, , when I started,  had no idea my son was struggling so much.

I did not know what substance use disorder looked like. I didn't know the symptoms. , and then when I did start to understand what those were, I was like, okay, well, how do we fix this?  What do we need to do to fix this? , let's do that, let's fix it. And then , let's move on with our lives. And she said, she just didn't understand those pieces.

So I think, , first and foremost, having that education available in accessible ways to explain , okay, this is what substance use disorder is. This is what it looks like. , sharing about what types of treatment and what types of support are available , you know, , that's why I love. Recovery. com  because you can find the different types of treatment that families can, , benefit from.  one of the things that I heard recently as well is A family member shared  curious is such an important way to start because a lot of times I think we come at it from , okay, I want to fix this or here's what's wrong with you.

 It's you , , or having this kind of,  are you doing this to our family type of approach, but coming at it more of a curious  Asking, , listening, practicing active listening.  I wish so deeply at my, the heights of my substance use.

Someone would have come to me  not said what's wrong with you, but  me what happened, why do you want to use substances? What is it about your life right now that you're not liking the feeling of? being present or, but just sitting and being curious. And then, , I know there's this conversation of, ,  tough love and, , boundaries and enabling and what's too much, or what should I do?

And I think when we come at it from a place of being curious,  we may be able to move with support to approaching it in a more healthy way where we can show up in a loving. compassionate, kind way where we're really listening to our loved ones and at the same time, , accessing support and encouraging them to access support when they need it.

And kind of understanding what , those boundaries and, , that should, what that should look like. ,

 Yeah. , you dive into that in the book right behind me. And also I see it in the beautiful picture frame there in you are not your trauma. Yeah. You talk about healing the family tree. And it's such a powerful idea because we're talking about intergenerational  healing, right? We're having these conversations to break the cycles. 

What do you most hope to impart to your readers, particularly on that notion of intergenerational healing? 

 ,   so my mom co wrote the book with me, why we wanted to tell this story is because , as we've both had our own recovery journeys, they've looked different, but  different points, we realized how deeply entrenched, not just our own experiences, but our experiences as a family.

And even those things that may have happened generations before, how all of those things play a part and a role in how I'm walking out my life today. And I think when we can look at our lives more holistically, like it's not this just set. Story, right? My story is  a story within a story, within a story.

It's a part of a much larger story.  So I think when we can talk about intergenerational trauma, it opens up our stories and helps us recognize that there's a lot more that we maybe need to look at in addressing.  we want to move to places of more healing,  and moving towards more freedom  some of the circles that we have are unhealthy patterns. 

 It's wonderful. Yeah,  you really embedded yourself in grassroots and governmental recovery efforts and advocating in so many different realms of this, so you positioned yourself beautifully. Where do you see this movement heading, particularly with regards to family support and trauma informed care?

  Yeah, that's a really good question. , I think I need to put , my dreamer, my vision or hat on here. , I think it could go a lot of different ways and I think we can learn from each other and from different movements. There's been  much gain in the recovery movement and just like this openness about sharing our story and , stigma is decreasing even though it's still alive and , we've made so many movements.

So I think. learning from  other on, , what has helped and what works. And so being able to continue to tell the story of family members or maybe start doing that more, I think is so important because again, like Even just in these interviews that I've been doing recently, hearing over and over and over again, that families are afraid to get help.  feel that stigma. They feel that shame.  That to me is just like a red flag of , okay, we need to look at how can we start telling more stories? How can we start addressing this? So more people need help. So I don't know if I have an answer yet for where it's going. , I'm glad that , I'm on the journey.

 I'm excited to see , where it will end up landing.  No,

that you're doing is so impactful and thank you for the beautiful books and all of the advocacy and work that you're doing. It really is amazing and inspirational.

Truly, I can't wait to join all of the things  you're doing. , I'm excited to get off this call

Exactly.

you everywhere.

Exactly. I know. So, any other questions, Amanda, that you want to ask or, , Caroline, was there anything else that you wanted to cover before we land on our last question?

I think this is great. I there's nothing else I can think of.

. Been great questions and everything so

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. All right. So the last question,  is, what does recovery mean to you?

  I love that question so much. And I bet you get a lot of different answers, which is really neat because it is such a personalized journey. , but one that we all share, I think, , the word that always comes to mind for me is transformation. , some of the pictures, , and memories that I have, , and then comparing that to where my life is today. , I'm a new person. I am a new person and my life has completely transformed. And what's so awesome about the living transformation, , that is recovery is that , it's living. Like it's not something that ends. , I continue to be able to transform and change and grow. And, , I love the picture of, , a butterfly and what it goes through as a caterpillar.

And then, , in its pupa and what happens there, which apparently it  turns into butterfly soup, which is really interesting. , I talk about that in my book. , I know I never thought about what actually happens in the PIPA thing. , but all sorts of stuff happens there.

And then, , and obviously the beautiful butterfly, but, , it's how amazing our lives can be like that, , just this transformational journey. And yes, it can be hard and yes, it can be challenging even in recovery, but, , we have the tools that we need to just keep going and just keep putting one foot in front of the other and, , keep walking this transformation out.

And  What a beautiful opportunity that is to be able to do that. 

 Beautiful. Love it. 

 That was spot on. So true. And it, it's, um, just always evolving and it gets easier and then it gets harder, which I wish more people talked about. . And I wish more people talked about the fact that it can get harder. I'm coming up on five years and I'm, ,  facing some stuff that I, , wasn't,  ready to before , and that's, it feels almost harder than it did my first year of recovery, but, , in different ways.

So anyway,  the journey is, , beautiful and long and winding and evolving. And, , I'm so glad that  we met each other and, , we're all on this journey together.

Love it.

too.

So I want to say you can pick up your copy of You Are Not Your Trauma and Downstairs Church. , on Amazon and, , definitely recommend them  wonderful, wonderful pieces. You can subscribe to circle of chairs.  And again, Caroline, thank you for bringing , all of this to our audience and to us.

We're so excited to have you on today and to continue working with you in the future.

So thank you. 

  📍  Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of the recovery. com podcast for additional information, resources, and to access treatment options, please visit our website at recovery. com. We appreciate your listenership and are excited to have you join us on our next show coming soon.